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Douglas
Schmitt (of PrestonSpeed Publications) We thank you Father for
Your many blessings. Bless each one here tonight as well as Mary and
her special guest Dr. Jay Wile. We pray all will enjoy and find great
counsel in this presentation. In Christ name we pray. Amen.
Mary Leggewie (of Homeschool Christian.com) Amen! Mary Thank you Doug. Welcome to tonight's conference with Dr. Jay Wile, founder of the Apologia Educational Ministries. You will only see your name on the screen in the audience, and you cannot type, but you can submit questions to be answered after our interview by clicking on the question icon in the middle of your screen. Mary Dr. Jay L. Wile holds an earned Ph.D. from the University of Rochester in nuclear chemistry and a B.S. in chemistry from the same institution. He has won several awards for excellence in teaching and has presented numerous lectures on the topics of Nuclear Chemistry, Christian Apologetics, Homeschooling, and Creation vs. Evolution. In addition, he has published 30 articles on these subjects in nationally-recognized journals. His teaching credentials include: The University of Rochester, Indiana University, Ball State University, and The Indiana Academy for Science, Mathematics and Humanities (a high school for gifted and talented students). Currently, Dr. Wile writes curriculum for homeschoolers as well as Christian apologetics material. He has written 5 high school science textbooks designed specifically for homeschooled students as well as one Christian apologetics book. Several of Dr. Wile's articles are in our Position Papers Page: Rebuttal by Dr. Jay Wile on "Some Words of Concern from Public School Administrators," "Can't I Put This Off Until College?" "Are You Educated Enough to Educate Your Child?" "Why Should I Make My Child Take Science? He Wants to Be a Concert Violinist!" Mary Welcome, Dr. Jay! Dr. Jay Thank you so much! I am happy to be here. Dr. Jay {action: } smiles. Mary Let's dive right in! I see you're comfortable already in our chat room! Dr. Jay They didn't give me that Ph.D. for nothin' Dr. Jay {action: } grins evilly. Mary Can a parent with little formal education really teach high school to his or her children? Dr. Jay Let me answer this question in two ways. The first is based on educational theory, and the second is based on scientific studies. From a theoretical point of view, the answer is that a parent, regardless of education level, should be a BETTER teacher to his or her child than any trained professional. Why? The answer is simple. Ask anyone, ANYONE what single quality makes a teacher great. I have asked this question to hundreds of teachers,administrators, and college professors. They all say the same thing: Great teachers are the ones who CARE. That's the difference. A good teacher knows the subject, is a good communicator, etc. etc. A great teacher, however CARES for the student. Well, who cares more than anyone else for any give student? The student's parents, of course. Thus, a parent will be a great teacher for his or her child, because the parent cares more than anyone else. All of the other stuff (knowledge, communication, etc.) can be learned. Caring comes from within. If you have that, the rest is trivial. This is born out by scientific study. Look at the graph that should be showing on the screen. In this graph, the average Stanford Achievement Test scores of homeschooled students (blue bars) and publicly-schooled students (red bars) are shown grouped according to their parents' education level. Notice two things. First, in all cases, the blue bars are higher than the red ones. This means homeschooled students are academically superior to publicly-schooled students. Second, notice that the average test score of homeschooled students is barely affected by the parents' education level. Whether the student's parents were college graduates or never finished high school, the average is right around 82%. For publicly-schooled students, however, the average test score is DIRECTLY related to the parents' education level. The more educated the parent is, the better the test score. Thus, even if you have not finished high school, both theory and experiment say that you CAN teach your child at home!
Dr. Jay As a side note, look at the other graph that should be showing now. It indicates that a homechooled student's academic achievement is also independent of the parents' INCOME level. Whether a parent makes more than $100,000 a year or less than $15,000 a year, his or her homeschooled student will perform about the same on standardized tests. Thus, you do not need a lot of formal education. You do not even need a lot of money. You just need a lot of LOVE.
Mary That's why I cringe when folks tell me that *I* can teach my kids because I have a master's degree. I know better! Dr. Jay Exactly. Mary It's also interesting that many folks will say "ah...you're lucky to have enough money to stay home with the kids and homeschool, when actually, most of the families I know struggle to make that a reality! Dr. Jay Most homeschoolers I know have money troubles… That's because they are paying lavishly for their neighbor's kids' education and also paying again for their own kids' education. Mary HA HA HA!!! Mary Why do you recommend that a child be homeschooled at the high school level? Dr. Jay There are three main reasons. The first is shown by the graph that should be on the screen now. This graph shows the average Stanford Achievement Test scores of homeschooled students compared to publicly-schooled student for grades 9-12. Notice that IN ALL SUBJECTS, the average homeschool score is 15-25% higher than the average for publicly-schooled students. This is a common statistic from many, many studies. HOMESCHOOLED STUDENTS ARE ACADEMICALLY SUPERIOR TO PUBLICLY-SCHOOLED STUDENTS... Dr. Jay Thus, I recommend that you homeschool your child through high school because your child will LEARN MORE. That is almost a guarantee! Before I leave this point, let me make it clear what this graph means TO YOU. Let's suppose you are a BAD homeschooler. What will that do to your students' academic scores? It will pull them down. If you are REALLY BAD, it might pull them down so much that your students have THE SAME SCORES AS THE PUBLICLY-SCHOOLED STUDENTS! In my opinion, you have to REALLY TRY if you want to educate your children as poorly as the public schools do!
Mary LOL! The second reason is social. The WORST place a student can be from a social perspective is in a public school. It is artificial. Nowhere, in the rest of your life, will you ever be in a situation where you spend 8+ hours per day with those your same age. Also, psychologists tell us that during the high school years, peer pressure is at its HIGHEST. The jails are FULL of people who listened to their peer group and no their parents. Thus, the MOST IMPORTANT time to monitor peer group is in high school. It is nearly impossible to adequately monitor peer group when your child is at school 8+ hours per day! Finally, the spiritual development of your child is more important than ANY academic development. Can you truly justify sending your child to someplace that actively FIGHTS the spiritual values which you are trying to instill? Most public schools are openly anti-Christian. How can you expect your child to develop spiritually when the place that he or she gets all of his or her information is anti-Christian? Mary A friend of mine paid to have her child evaluated two years in a row, and there was no change! She was furious! She's now homeschooling, knowing she can do better than that! And I can't agree with you more on the lack of Christian values at school! Dr. Jay Of course. The schools we have today produce "graduates," 25% of whom cannot READ! Mary I know! I see them in the stores, I read the mistakes in brochures I pick up! Dr. Jay It is nuts! Mary What is different between teaching elementary school/junior high school and high school? Dr. Jay Of course, one difference is content, but in my mind, that is rather trivial. There is more to teach, and you, most likely, will have to learn things that you got out of learning in school. However, if you truly care about your student, that should not be an issue. What most parents forget, however, is RECORD-KEEPING. Workplaces and colleges want to see good records about a student's high school experience. There are 4 things that you need. 1. A transcript. This is a list of courses (usually by semester). You give the student a grade for each course, and you assign a certain number of credits for each course. Generally, you assign 0.5 credits per semester. A one-semester course, then, gets 0.5 credit; a full-year course gets 1.0 credit. You then compute the student's Grade Point Average (GPA). You compute the GPA by assigning a numerical value for grades (A = 4, B=3, C=2, D=1, F=0). The GPA is then figured by taking the numerical value of each grade and multiplying it by the number of credits in the course. For example, a "B" in a 1-semester course works our to be worth 1.5 (3 x 0.5). You add all of those up and divide by the total number of credits. This gives you the GPA, which will be between 0 and 4. 2. A more detailed list of courses. This list is NOT a part of a transcript, but is for your reference when and if you are questioned about what a course entailed. This list should have each course and the text. Note what chapters in the text were covered. If you did not use a text, explain the methodology of the course and give a rough outline of what was covered. 3. A list of the student's extracurricular activities. The more you can list, the better. Any offices held should be noted. 4. A portfolio of the student's best work. Over a 4-year period, this should be about 1-inch thick. Thus, there is not A LOT in this portfolio. It is designed to "WOW" anyone who wants to see what your student did in homeschool. It should contain a broad range of subjects (science, math, writing, history, etc.). Put a few tests in there to indicate the depth of the courses, and put the student's best essays, papers, and projects in there. This might seem like a lot, but it is crucial. When it comes time for college or the workforce, you will NEED this information! Mary At what age/grade would you begin this detailed record-keeping? Dr. Jay Start with high school. And this is an important point. High school does not begin at a certain AGE. It begins with certain subjects. If you student is doing high school work in 7th grade, that's when you start the high school transcript. Click here to see a sample of a transcript from Dr. Jay. Mary Good point...I don't know if I would have thought of that! Mary What subjects should be covered in high school? Dr. Jay In the picture that should be showing up now, I list the basic subjects necessary for a college-prep high school experience: 4 years of English
and library research
Mary How much should a parent allow their teenager to determine his/her course work in high school, what electives to take, etc.? Dr. Jay In my mind, if you cover the subjects listed in the picture, the student can do ANYTHING ELSE he or she wants. There probably will not be a lot of time for extra courses. With my daughter, I gave her choices WITHIN subjects. For example, once a student gets through biology, chemistry, and physics, the fourth year of science could be whatever the student wants. In English, I had a list of 35 books I wanted my daughter to have read before she graduated. I only REQUIRED 16. She could choose from the 35. I also let her choose one "fun" book not on the list that counted towards school. Thus, she read 5 books per year for school, 4 from the list and one "fun" one. That's how I gave my daughter some control of her coursework... Every child is different, however. You need to work it out with your own child. Remember, he or she should have SOME say in the education you are giving him or her. Mary How does homeschooling affect what kind of colleges my child can attend? Dr. Jay In general, publicly-funded schools (like state schools) consider homeschooling a minus. Many ask that the student take a GED test or a few SAT II tests to demonstrate proficiency. This is in addition to SAT/ACT tests. Usually, good SAT/ACT test scores do a lot for admission. That's why I stress SAT/ACT review. Also, the QUALITY of the transcript and CONSISTENCY between grades and SAT scores is important. If the transcript is lousy, or if the student gets straight A's but only manages a 1000 on the SAT, those things will DEFINITELY count against your student getting in. On the other hand, most privately-funded universities are happy to accept homeschooled students, because they usually understand that homeschooled students are academically superior to the rest of the crowd. A list of homeschool-friendly colleges can be found at Karl Bunday's Learn in Freedom Web site (http://learninfreedom.org/colleges_4_hmsc.html). Mary That is a GREAT Web site! Karl Bunday has done extensive research for the homeschool community! Dr. Jay I agree. Mary When should high schoolers begin taking college entrance exams? Dr. Jay First, you need to see whether the colleges your student is interested in accept the ACT. That is a BETTER test, especially for girls. Thus, if your student's prospective colleges accept ACT scores, your student should take the ACT. If that's what you do, you should have your student take the ACT at least twice: once in the latter part of the junior year and once in the very early senior year. If your student's desired colleges take only the SAT, then the student should take it 3 times: once in the early junior year, once in the late junior year, and once in the very early senior year. Either way, your student should take the PSAT in the late sophomore or early junior year. The PSAT is supposed to be practice for the SAT. It is not. However, it IS the ONLY way to qualify for the National Merit Scholarship program... This makes your student eligible for money. Also, there are many colleges that will accept National Merit Scholars REGARDLESS of anything else. Thus, getting the National Merit Scholarship can be a BIG plus, and that makes it worth taking the PSAT. Mary What do you think of those test prep CD-ROMs I see in the stores? (Okay, I'm a software junkie!) Dr. Jay I don't like any that I have seen. They encourage guessing, not real review. Stick with the books. They are better, at least compared to the CDs I have seen. Mary Maybe you should make that a new project! My oldest is 10, so you have a few years to get it together! Dr. Jay Yeah, right. Like I don't have enough to do!!! Dr. Jay {action: } laughs hysterically. Mary When should high schoolers consider beginning college course work? Dr. Jay High schoolers should do COLLEGE-PREP work right away. Things like solid, rigorous courses that will get them ready for the demands of college as well as SAT/ACT should start right away. As far as college-level courses, you need to be sure of your student's academic abilities. If you toss your student into a college-level chemistry course as his or her FIRST chemistry course, odds are that he or she will fail and hate chemistry. A college-prep course should be taken FIRST, then a college-level course can be taken. This is true for MOST college classes. There is a reason high school comes before college: students need to be prepared. I always encourage students to get at least one college-level course under their belts before going to college, but be sure they are PREPARED for it. In our science courses, for example, we have 2 years of chemistry. The first is college-prep, the second is college-level. You cannot take the second without taking the first. Alternatively, you could take the first course and THEN go to a local college for a college-level year of chemistry. We will eventually have courses like that for physics and biology as well. Mary How do you keep it interesting to your child? Dr. Jay In order to keep it interesting, you have to be creative. You need to find good curriculum, but not every course should be highly structured. For example, when I "taught" my girl US history, world history, government, and geography, I did not use textbooks. I emphasized research. For government, for example, I had her find a full copy of the US Constitution. Then, over the course of a semester, I had her write it in MODERN ENGLISH. This required her to do a lot of research into what the Founding Fathers were really saying. It made her interested in a subject that she rolled her eyes at when I told her she would have to take it. Of course, this requires creativity, and that can be difficult, especially if you have a lot of kids and therefore little time! Mary That sounds very interesting! What should we tell our friends/in-laws/parents about "socialization?" Dr. Jay Tell them first of all that schools are the most ARTIFICAL place in the world! As I said before, nowhere, in the rest of your life, will you ever be in a situation where you spend 8+ hours per day with those your same age... Mary Amen! Dr. Jay In fact, if you are worried about the erosion of the English language, you can point to schools as the culprit. Every study ever done on this subject indicates that when a certain age group that is relatively homogeneous is cloistered away, the members of the group end up communicating in their own dialect. That's what happens in schools. Second, you can point to a WEALTH of studies that indicate homeschoolers are BETTER socialized than publicly-schooled children. For example: Dr. Gary Knowles(1991) studied more than 1,000 Michigan adults who had been homeschooled. None were unemployed or on welfare (compared to 5.6% and 11.2%, respectively for the average population). A full 94% said that homeschool helped prepare them to be independent persons, and 79% said that it helped them to interact with those from other levels of society. Dr. Shyers (1992) reports studied the behavior of homeschooled and publicly schooled students in free and structured play. Homeschoolers have significantly lower problem behavior scores. Other than that, there was little noticeable difference. Mary I think I tracked down that Web site from Gary Knowles...we'll have to post it on the transcript. Dr. Jay Dr. Delahooke (1986) showed that homeschooled students are significantly less peer dependent. Dr. Montgomery (1989) showed that homeschooled students are just as active in extracurricular activities that promote leadership as were privately-schooled students. Andrews University in Michigan showed that the average home schooled student scored in the top third of the PIERS-HARRIS SELF CONCEPT SCALE, a standard test of social adjustment, and over half scored in the top 10 percent. Mary We've had that socialization issue come up regularly. Thanks for the additional ammo! Mary Can you tell us briefly about some of the curriculum you offer? Mary Apologia Educational Ministries Web site is now on the top frame of your screen. You can click around in it without leaving the chat. Dr. Jay We offer a full line of science curriculum designed specifically for the home. We have 7 - 12 grade materials. All courses have laboratory exercises designed for the home, and 3 of those courses require only household items for the experiments. The other courses have extra lab equipment required but we can sell you the lab equipment you need. The high school courses are all at the college-prep level. The courses are money-back guaranteed, and we have a free question/answer service that you can use as much as you like. Mary So a science-phobic mom can handle it? Dr. Jay Actually, more that half of our students do this completely on their own. It is designed as independent study. This is true even for chemistry and physics! Mary Are there tests to be done and corrected, then? Dr. Jay Yes, there are tests. There are also WORKED OUT solutions to EVERYTHING. Mary Ah, and if there are questions, the students are able to call you, then. Dr. Jay Call me, write me, E-MAIL me, FAX me... I always respond within one business day, unless I am on vacation. Mary Do you find that most students do it independently, or do most do it with moms? Dr. Jay More than half do it independently. Mary How long have your programs been out, and which one came first? Dr. Jay Chemistry came first, 6 years ago. I was really just writing for a small group in Indiana, but it exploded. Mary Well, Dr. Jay, you can take a breath....And now...YOUR questions!!! Please give me a moment to take a look at them. If your question is not answered, it may have been discussed before you arrived, and you will be able to read the answer on the transcript later. Q&A: Questions and Answers from the AudienceBeverly {question presented} What types of practical things do you recommend for those not old enough for your courses with respect to science? Dr. Jay That's a good question. I really like Considering God's Creation. If you use it as a guide for subjects, then you can take each subject deeper as the child gets older. You can get it at Eagle's Wings Publications 580-252-1555 (I am not affiliated with them in any way) Mary Or, of course, you can get it from our ChristianBook Link! Dr. Jay There you go. Mary And *I* AM affiliated with that one! [grin] Debbie G {question presented} Can you give us a representative sample from your English reading list? Dr. Jay Oh my... Let's see... The Scarlet Letter (I HATE
that one).... Mary Ready for another question? Dr. Jay Sure. Beverly {question presented} How do you think the advent of the Internet with respect to college/university and being able to take courses will aid the homeschooler? Dr. Jay It might help some, but I have yet to see an INTERNET course that I really like. Eventually, I think people will fashion quality courses, but I think that's a long time in coming. Actually, I am trying to do that myself, but QUALITY web courses are tough to design. Mary I can believe that! Dr. Jay If anyone sees one that works for them, let me know! Caron in CA {question presented} The data you are presenting about hs students' academic (SAT) scores being independent both of parents' educational background and of income level--Do those results hold true regardless of the grade of the student? Do the data support educational attainment by the parent being irrelevant even in high school? The data on the graphs were aggregate, i.e., combining, presumably K through 12. If there were several orders of magnitude more students in lower elementary than in, say, 10-12, one could possibly erroneously infer that parental education was irrelevant in grades 10-12, when, in fact, in the data presented, the difference was swamped by the lack of statistical difference in the lower grades. Dr. Jay That's a GREAT question. The studies included representatives from ALL grades. However, there was not enough data to make statistically significant cuts on grade level. However, the researchers did do control statistics that indicated the results hold true for all secondary grades. Mary Let me know when you've finished that question, Dr. Jay! Dr. Jay That's about all I can say. No study is perfect, but the results are definitely encouraging. They have also been confirmed by a second, larger study. Beverly {question presented} I have heard of many homeschooling scholars that have been BORED stiff with college. What do you think of clepping courses? [Ed. Note: Clepping a course means testing out of the course and obtaining credit as if you had taken the course in college.] Dr. Jay I am not a fan of clepping courses, ESPECIALLY in the student's area of interest. There are three reasons: 1. The students I had in college who clepped out of freshman chemistry more often than not failed or came close to failing sophomore chemistry. There are just too many things going on in your freshman year to think you can handle sophomore level courses. 2. The freshman courses form the basis of all else that you will learn. You need to know those courses COLD. 3. Professors ARE NOT impressed with freshmen in their sophomore courses. Instead, they are impressed with freshmen in their freshman courses that get GREAT GRADES. Mary You don't think you're underestimating today's homeschooled student? Dr. Jay No, I do not think I am underestimating homeschooled students. I have seen this happen to TOO many VERY GOOD students. Mary That's something for us to consider, but the appeal of shorter tuition costs makes it look like a great deal! Dr. Jay It does, but it is a gamble. If you must save money (and you usually get what you pay for), then have the student test out of something outside of his or her area of interest. Mary Point well taken! Beverly {question presented} I am not that great in phys ed .... I work to keep my weight on! Therefore, I have my daughters involved in dance (ballet/tap). Would a college accept this? Dr. Jay Absolutely. You would not be able to count it as an extracurricular that year, but you can certainly count it as Phys Ed. In fact, nearly every college with which I am familiar has dance as a Phys. Ed. course. Caron in CA {question presented} I have heard some about teaching a student conceptual physics first, before he has the math, so that he understands, later when he takes the "real" physics, what and *why* he is applying the formulae in, say, E&M. Dr. Jay I general, I don't really like that approach. Physics without math is not REAL physics, and you end up having to lie to the student in order to get past the math.Now, at the same time, I DO teach some physics to lower-grade students. In my 8th grade course, the second half is physics. However, I DO NOT spare the math. I simply teach those concepts that are appropriate for the student's math level. Mary Dr. Jay would you also explain "E & M?" Dr. Jay "E&M" stands for "electricity and magnetism." This is one of the more esoteric parts of physics, and some educators think that a conceptual approach helps in that area. In my opinion, what it does is make the student THINK he or she knows E&M, so that the student WILL NOT learn it when the "hard" math is added. Beverly {question presented} I use Berlitz for foreign language. Do you like that program? It's been around since my big brother was little! Dr. Jay I am not at all familiar with that one. I like Rosetta Stone myself. They now offer it at a very good homeschool discount. Mary I just got a hold of a copy of that myself to review over Christmas! It's very pricey! Dr. Jay No, it is not. You can call Carol Severson, (815) 643-2157 and get it for about $80, I think. Mary Ah, thanks...is that the publisher or an independent salesperson? Dr. Jay Independent sales. She negotiated with Rosetta Stone because it is used to selling to big groups like NASA, etc. Beverly {question presented} What got you interested in science from a Christian worldview, Dr. Wile? Dr. Jay I got interested in science at an early age. In elementary school, I was "tracked" to be a scientist and the schools taught me clearly that scientists had to be atheists. So I was a proud atheist. That all changed in high school when I was challenged by a Christian physics professor to look at the FACTS involved in Christianity. I read books by Peter Stoner, Josh McDowell, Henry Morris, etc., and came to realize that science points STRONGLY to Christianity. It is through that kind of search that I became a Christian. And yes, I was raised in a Christian home. Mary Well, do you have any parting comments for us, Dr. Jay? Dr. Jay It has been a lot of fun! Mary Dr, Jay, I'd like to thank you so much for joining us tonight for this conference! Thank you for all you do to promote the continuation of homeschooling through the high school years. Dr. Jay My pleasure! Dr. Jay {action: } bows gracefully. Mary Thanks also to PrestonSpeed Publications for making this Christian Education Symposium available to us! If you would like more information about the Apologia Educational Ministries or curriculum, you can contact them at http://www.highschoolscience.com . Their address is 808 Country Club Lane, Anderson, IN 46011 Phone 888-524-4724 Fax 765-649-4076 E-mail mailbag@highschoolscience.com Mary For those of you who would like to visit with fellow homeschoolers about tonight's conference, feel free to move to our Homeschool Chat room. Click on the Site Map with the red "X" to change rooms. Thank you for joining us, and God Bless you and your families! Good night.
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