Return to Christian Education Symposium Web HSC

Christian Education Symposium Mary Harrington, co-author of Latin in the Christian Trivium Question/Answer Forum July 2002

The following is an archive of the question and answer message board on which Mary Harrington was our guest.

Click here for Martha's review of this book. Click here to see archives of past guests.

Mary Harrington has taught Latin for over fifteen years at various levels, from Middle School aged homeschoolers to community college classes. A mother of eleven, she homeschooled her last four children, including in-depth study in Latin. The two boys were accepted at the Naval Academy, having scored 1400 on their SATs. Doug is now studying to become a forensic chemist for the CIA or FBI; David is in flight school in Texas. The oldest daughter recently graduated from college majoring in astrophysics. Mary firmly believes their grounding in Latin greatly contributed to their high test scores. The youngest daughter has her AA degree majoring in music, graduating with Honors. She is married and they are expecting their first baby soon.

Mary taught for a while at a large Christian high school, and now she tutors online and continues working on their book, and really, really enjoys her grown children and grandchildren.

Latin In The Christian Trivium is her first book. It grew from Gail's and her frustration trying to teach Christian students, yet having to explain the humanistic viewpoint during the lessons presented in modern textbooks.

Welcome Mary Harrington!!! Visitors, please post your questions between July 3 and 12.
Posted By: Mary Leggewie

Thank you for joining us, Mary! We're thrilled to be able to discuss Latin with you.

Visitors...please read Martha's review of Mary's great Latin program on our Review page.

Let the fun begin!

Mary

HomeschoolChristian.com

I am not sure how to word this question, but what is the difference in the Trivium Latin and other Christian Latin programs?
Posted By: Rhonda

Response by Mary Harrington:

Christian Latin programs?

Hi Rhonda!

A great question! As you know, the trivium is a three step program for learning, which we like to call "data input," "processing," and "data output." Actually, the formal names are the Grammar stage, Dialectic, and Rhetoric. Our curriculum begins in the Late Grammar stage, about eleven years old (or can be begun later), when a student still is able to memorize easily. Our vocabulary then, is fairly large, which poses no difficulty for the young student.

By Volume Two, we introduce more Bible doctrine, as the student begins to mature into the Dialectic (Logic) stage. The student can dig more deeply into Scripture and examine the words like "blessed" to see exactly what they mean.

Volume Three assumes more maturity on the student's part, and requires him to process and analyze information. He will write a journal, do reports (one is a term paper), and learn about Biblical principles such as gnosticism.

Vol 4 is mostly Bible translation and commentary.

By the Way, what DOES "blessed" mean? Does it mean someone who is blessed has a halo? No! The Latin word for "blessed" is "beatus" which means "happy" or "blessed." Isn't that a great way to understand what the Beatitudes are all about?

Thank you for asking and giving me this opportunity to explain!

Mary

I took Latin as a high school student...
Posted By: NM Stephanie

I found that it helped me with my vocabulary greatly. I have been told that it is supposed to help with English Grammar also. I found, in my experience, that it did nothing for my English Grammar. How does that work? I haven't pushed Latin as I thought that just knowing the Latin and Greek roots will produce what I got from Latin. I have yet to understand the improvement in English Grammar.

Response by Mary Harrington:

Dear Stephanie,

You know, it may or may not help your grammar. It sort of depends on the point at which you are beginning your study. Our own children used Rod & Staff English books, so their English grammar was probably already adequate, but I wanted them to have the reinforcement that a study of Latin would give them.

The reason I chose to teach my children Latin was because I think it is easier to learn a structure (like grammar) from OUTSIDE the language, rather than from inside the language. Objectivity seems to help clear up any confusion as you get to the more complicated grammatical terms.

For example, some students get confused when learning present active participles and perfect passive participles, such as, "The man singing is my friend," or "The song having been sung in Latin seemed very beautiful."

However, in Latin, there are definite forms and endings so they learn to recognize these different grammatical structures.

The man singing is my friend. Vir cantans est meus amicus.

The song having been sung in Latin seemed very beautiful. Carmen cantatum Latina lingua visum est pulcherrimum.

I believe that learning any language other than English will help grammar, but we chose Latin primarily for vocabulary building and word formation. We wrote our book the way we did to include Bible study, history, culture, logical thinking skills, geography, ethics, and discipline.

Thank you for your letter!
Mary

Hi Mary!
Posted By: Allie

I never studied a language [including English] but want my sons to know Latin. My oldest just turned 10..is it too young to start?

Also, I don't have ANY grammar background. I slept through that in public school. My son is using Easy Grammar, and I just check his answers in the TM. How difficult would this be for ME? I have no doubts that he could do it, but I'm not sure about myself! Thanks so much, and welcome to our board!

Response by Mary Harrington:

Hi Allie!

Your son who is 10 can learn it, I'm sure, but you didn't say how old your other sons are. Right now I am tutoring a boy who is 11, on the Internet. He does very well. Or, you could begin with Latina Christiana, which is geared for the younger student, and then move on to a course like ours when the youngest is eleven or twelve.

Now, for YOU! I think you would really get a lot out of Latin. You are older now, and you would really enjoy learning about the root meanings of words, the culture of the Romans and why people even study it, as well as the grammar. Why not YOU study a high school level course (maybe ours??) and then when they are older, teach them?

Response by Allie:

My other son is only 8, and has some learning difficulties, so we would wait to teach him. I haven't even started with grammar for him yet, as he's just starting to read well. I like the idea of teaching myself!

A couple of questions...
Posted By: DebVA

My kiddos are 15yodd (wants to go to the Naval Academy), 14yods (wants to go to West Point), & 8yodd (wants to work at Wal-Mart ~ eh, we've got time!)...we just began the Classical Approach a few months ago and we are *loving* it! The kiddos are all doing well in each area of study ~ including Latin. I took Latin in HS, but, the only thing I remember is the "Veni, Vidi, Visa ~ I came, I saw, I did a little shopping" t-shirt that the instructor wore on Fridays!

We are currently using "Artes Latinae" with the kids, mostly because it claims to be user friendly & self teaching. [With my vast knowledge of Latin ;) it seemed to be the best choice.] The phrase "if you don't know where you're going, chances are you won't get there" keeps ringing in my head, however. Our goals for the kids are not so much that they make a great SAT score or the Dean's list (although that *would* be nice!)...we want for them to be grounded, rooted, and have a firm base in CHRIST; I'm not so impressed that they can tell me that "the horse is running down the road"!

A few questions...

How user friendly is the Latin in the Christian Trivium program? Is it idiot proof?! (Mom needs that! I seek to help the kids, not hinder them!) Since we are so new to this approach, a change to this program could probably be taken in stride (perhaps?), but, is a bright 8yo still below the required "level" for this? She's doing well where we are now...but keeping our goal in mind, the mind of CHRIST in all of them is more important. Is there a "danger" in switching at this point? Confusion? Do we start over completely ~ just sort of erase the mental slate up until now?

Sorry for the verbosity ~ I tend to think faster than I type! Thank you for your time here & with my questions!

Blessings ~
Debbie

You left out an English phrase derived from that Latin one you sent in. In our local newspaper recently there was an article about a man who beat his wife. They asked him what happened. He said, "I came, I saw, I conked her." [groan]

About the bright 8 year old... Are you going to teach your children, or do they study by themselves? If you teach them, she will do fine. My own daughter began at 8 with no problem, and another 8 year old was in our class. At the same time, I was taking Latin at the local college, and the prof let me bring in our homeschool students to visit. He was amazed that the 8 year olds could translate passages that the college age students struggled with!

No danger in starting over. Only expense. (No, I am not a good salesman!)

On to your other subjects, I totally agree with you that being strong Christians is the real goal. What good is it to be even President of the U.S. if you don't have good character? But, if you are satisfied with your children's character and they do want to go to the Naval Academy or West Point, I sure would like to give you some pointers about getting in. Write to me if you'd like to discuss this further.

Blessings to YOU too!

Response by Deb:

Well Mary ~

I can't say thank you enough for your sweet spirit & the time you have taken with my endless ramblings! Can you stand one more??

For starters, I think it's more important to have the kids learn Latin as it directly relates to other areas of their lives, i.e.: their Christian walk...I can't, in good conscience, expect them to draw a line between their "Christian Course Load" and "Latin" ~ I believe it should al blend & meld into a whole, well-rounded education...

Is the TE (Teacher's Edition) perusal offer open now?? (My DH is stationed in OK, when he calls home this weekend I'll need to run it by him, of course...) I don't believe in coincidence ~ the LORD has brought me to this place for a reason. Seems to me that if the LORD wants us to use this program, HE can sell our other program and provide what's needed to acquire this one! Their education ~ especially where it's directly related to the LORD ~ is the most important thing to us....

Oh ~ and ~ I'd love to discuss the kids futures at the Military Academies of their choice! Mail I e-mail you at the above listed address?? Have you any advice for my youngster and her Wal-Mart aspirations?!

Thank you again for your time ~
Debbie

Response by Mary Harrington:

Debbie,

Yes! I would love to help you get the kids into the Academy. We have another girl in the Naval Academy now; a former homeschooling student of mine and family friend. She is finished with her plebe year now and really having fun. Write me at LatinDr3@aol.com .

Yes, also, regarding the Teacher's Guide. I think you will get a pretty fair idea of our style of teaching there. Volume One is pretty basic, but you can see some of Volume Two on our Web page in the "Samples" section. I urge you to look at that as well.

I am glad you ramble. I do too!

Looking forward to hearing from you!
Mary

Note from Mary Leggewie: Julie, our Military Homeschool Message Board hostess is Mary Harrington's daughter!

Credits
Posted By: Chris in NY

Hi Mary,

It is my understanding that one volume of LCT doesn't necessarily equal one year (high school) of foreign language. Is this accurate?

How would you give high school credit for your course?

Also, how much of the program is completed/published?

Thanks,
Chris

Response from Mary Harrington:

While it is true that one volume of our course does not equal one year of high school Latin in a public school, 3 volumes of our course DOES equal 3 years of high school Latin.

The reason is that most Latin courses teach all the grammar in the first year, then they move on to Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic Wars the second year, and in the third year they study Roman poets and Cicero.

We decided, while teaching our children, to spread out the grammar to three years, so that they would retain it better, and in order to study the Bible themes, geography, history, culture, political science as they relate to Christianity.

Therefore, we have the standard vocabulary plus words that will be needed to translate much of Scripture. We translate a part of Caesar in Volume Three, and have directions for doing a term paper on Caesar. Volume Three also includes Cicero's First Oration against Cataline, with the historical background of that event.

My children received 3 years' high school credit for this course, and it was fully accepted by the U.S. Naval Academy, so I think it should be accepted at any other college. One of our customers gave her daughter the standard Latin exam after she studied one volume of our course, only. I was a little concerned, due to the layout of our program. But the girl passed with an above average score. So, it seems to be sufficient even though designed differently.

We have finished two volumes and are about 3/4 done with volume three. It should be done by Christmas. We have many customers using Volume Two, so we realize the importance of finishing the course!

Thank you for your letter!
Mary

Hi Mary,
By the time school starts I will have 8 children at home, with 7 in school if you count the 4yod who thinks she needs to do school (and not counting the 2 in college or the 2yod). Realistically, how much teaching time would I have to invest in this? I'm thinking of this for my 16yos & almost-13yos.

Until I read the reviews on your program today I was planning to use Our Roman Roots for these two and Latina Christiana I for the almost-11 yos and 9 yos (who has an incredible memory), using syllabi from Laura Berquist which has memory-only for first year LCI. Maybe I should do one program with all four of them. I didn't figure there's any point in introducing Latin to my Senior daughter, or is there? We've never done any Latin at all and I have to work hard not to feel overwhelmed thinking of it. My wise dh said the only way we can do Latin is if I'm not pregnant by August! :-)

My students are quite independent and pretty self-disciplined in their school work (at least the oldest three) but I know I can't handle a tremendously rigorous program. Sorry I'm rambling on--can you help? (hey, just talked to the 17yod online and she's game for Latin!)

Charlotte

Response from Mary Harrington:

Dear Charlotte,

How the Lord has blessed you! You enjoy them now, but you will, oh so much, more when they are fine young adults!

Regarding Latin... when I had so many children, I had to really budget my time. I am not sure how much time you are able to devote to teaching, and how much of the time you need to have them work independently. If you were to teach them Latin with no extra help, it would take at least 3 hours a week of your time.

However, I think, if your older daughter is willing, you should ask her to teach the 13 year old while she teaches herself, and you just teach the 16 year old. That would only take an hour or so a week of your time. (Perhaps she could teach the 16 year old, but in our family, that would have not worked out well.) Your 17 year old daughter would learn so easily, and so well, if she were to teach another student at the same time she was learning. Docendo discitur. "We learn by teaching!" You could let her know that she can write me anytime with questions. Many of our customers do that frequently. (I really enjoy answering questions because of the years I spent as an AOL Latin tutor, helping in the AOL Homework Help Rooms.)

Later, the 16 year old might be able to teach one of the younger children for you too!

When we were homeschooling, my son Douglas taught Stefanie, who was the baby of the family, all of her schoolwork, because I was very busy with our large family. One day, when she was 13, and all the others were grown, I finally had time to sit down alone with her and teach her! Guess what? She didn't really need my help. But, in the kindness of her heart, she "let" me teach her anyway! So, I say that to let you know something you already know; the older ones do teach the younger ones!

So, my conclusion is that you can do a difficult subject like this if you delegate.

Thank you for writing!
Mary

Response from Charlotte:

Great idea! Oh, Mary, I had forgotten that you have 11 children(!)--and, yes, I am truly enjoying my young adults. It's just a bit of a challenge coping with all the ages right now.

I think your suggestion would work beautifully. The 17yod and 13yos would work well together and I would enjoy the time with the 16yos. I think I should stick with a simpler introduction to Latin with the 10yos and 9yos (such as the 5-min./daily memorization of Latina Christiana using the Berquist syllabus) since that would feel less overwhelming to me. I think we can swing this and I do feel that this is the path God is leading us down. Thanks so much for your wisdom--I'm sure we'll be in touch!

Charlotte

Response from Mary Harrington:

Charlotte,

Yes, I think your delegating, and having the younger children do the Latina Christiana will work great!

No matter which course you choose, please consider me an online resource if you need any Latin question answered!

God bless you!
Mary

("The Best is Yet to Come!" I read that in a book by Teresa Bloomingdale, mother of ten. It is so true!)

Feeling overwhelmed....so glad you're here!
Posted By: AZKate

Mary, here is my situation. I have 3 sons, 2 that are homeschooling, (the other is 20 and done except for college) We have only homeschooled for 4 years, and we are loving it. However I still feel like a newbie in many ways. I have one who is 14 (9th grade) and one who is 9 (4th) It's mostly the high school homeschooling that has me shaking I'm my boots. We have been working on the curriculum choices for our 14 yos, and I 'assumed' he'd take Spanish for his foreign language... last night he mentions he'd like to do Latin. I really was surprised! I've been looking into the choices and am overwhelmed. I know nothing about Latin, and neither does he. I would like to be a part of it, but know that I may need something that he can do independently, in case I drop the ball. After reading your other conversations I'm wondering what program you might recommend for us. Is it possible for him to use yours to teach himself (and perhaps his little brother, who is gifted intellectually)? I do like the idea of the program having a Christian focus, rather than pagan classics.

Many of the reviews I find online ALL sound good. I don't know how to even begin to narrow things down to make a good choice for us. I'm hoping you can help me, maybe you know what to ask me, to help bring some clarity here.

Sorry, if I sound scattered, I wasn't able to sleep well my brain kept running on Latin thoughts! LOL

Can you help me bring my heart rate back down to normal? ;o)

Response from Mary Harrington:

Dear Kate,

You remind me of myself when we began homeschooling. Harried! A wise friend told me that the Lord wouldn't give me more work to do than was possible. I felt so overwhelmed! I thought she must be wrong, but yet, what she said made sense.

So, I will advise you the way she advised me. Stop! Take a deep breath; ask the Lord for guidance. Realize that you yourself do not have to do all the high school work. He has to do it!

Your older son can learn from books all by himself for some of his education. Ask him! You make a plan for him; get the right books, and then choose where you can work with him, where he can do it himself, or where he needs outside help. Some homeschooling parents can do it all, but our children needed to take chemistry and composition at the local college. I tried to steer away from those classes which were taught by atheists, but in our case, I knew many of their teachers myself, and I didn't feel that they would be exposed to too much bad information in the classes they took.

Regarding the Latin... what can I say? Naturally, I think our book is the best and is self-teaching for the older student. However, a bright student can learn from any Latin textbook. I really can't advise you on any other than our own; the only one I know well is Wheelock's First Year Latin, an excellent college level book. I feel that our book is written for the uninitiated and the Christian, but maybe some others are as well.

If you would like to order the Teacher's Guide, which has all the material enclosed, I would be happy to send it to you, with the understanding that you have two weeks to return it in resellable condition, and you would get a full refund less postage.

Or... look at our Web site for sample chapters. www.homeschoollatin.com

And please feel free to e-mail me privately as you go along. I like to think that I am the older experienced mother who enjoys helping and encouraging young moms. (Not sure how great a job I do, but that is my goal!)

God bless you! You can do this!
(Remember, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.")

Response from AZKate:

Thanks Mary, I'm glad to hear that your program can be self directed for an older student. Also thanks for the reminder to place all this homeschool stuff back at the feet of the Lord. I do fine for a while then something comes along that throws me off the path... like LATIN! LOL. I am going through Barb Shelton's and M. Howshall's materials and they are a great encouragement for me to keep my focus on the Lord. I need to check out your web-site, I have not been there yet, there must be a link nearby. I'll go and do that now. I'm sure I'll return with some questions for you. (Hopefully more calmly written questions) ;o)

A quote from your site..."A class session of Latin in the Christian Trivium has a teacher-led lecture time in which the student copies things from the text into a notebook and then completes study and drill sheets."

How exactly would this be done by a student working on his own?

Also, it looks as if we would need more than just the volume text to do the program well. I would think we would need the Teacher guide and study, drill and test sheets booklet, and the pronunciation cd or tape at a minimum for our purposes. Does that look right to you?

I'm going to ask my son to go over the samples and see what he thinks. Thanks for your help.
Blessings, Katie

I'm back...A quote from your site..."A class session of Latin in the Christian Trivium has a teacher-led lecture time in which the student copies things from the text into a notebook and then completes study and drill sheets."

How exactly would this be done by a student working on his own?

Also, it looks as if we would need more than just the volume text to do the program well. I would think we would need the Teacher guide and study, drill and test sheets booklet, and the pronunciation cd or tape at a minimum for our purposes. Does that look right to you?

I'm going to ask my son to go over the samples and see what he thinks. Thanks for your help.
Blessings, Katie

Response from Mary Harrington:

Hi Kate!

Yes, a younger student would need to be directed by a teacher/mom, but a student 15 years old or older would not need such direction. All directions are written in the textbook. He or she can just DO what it says to do, knowing that if he doesn't understand something, he can e-mail me.

And yes, to do this properly, you should have the text, the study sheets packet, the CD. However, the course is complete in just the textbook, but we felt that most students need the practice given in the Study Sheets and Drill Sheets. The answer key in the Teacher's Guide is helpful, unless your student doesn't feel he needs it. He can always check with me to see if he got the answers correct.

Hope this helps!
Mary

Latin Credit for foreign language requirement...
Posted By: AZKate

Hello again Mrs. Harrington,

Hoping you are still available today... I think it's your last day to be here.

Yesterday a friend and I were talking about things we did at the homeschool convention we just had in here in Phoenix. She mentioned that the sales person at the Learnables or Power Glide booth (I can't remember which it was) told her that colleges do not accept Latin as your foreign language credit requirement because it is a dead language. This was news to her, and if correct is news to me... I was wondering if you could shed any light on this. Does it differ from college to college, or what?
Thanks again...

Response from Mary Harrington:

Kate, I hope it was not the Power Glide salesperson. They SELL Latin! (Telling her that was not the greatest sales tool.)

I will check further, since I cannot be positive, but this is what I do know.

The Naval Academy at Annapolis accepted it, and I would assume that their standards are quite rigid. The woman who has the Latin Teach site told me that most colleges do accept Latin today. BTW, she has a great site: www.latinteach.com.

I am guessing that it just depends on the college, but since the Academy gave my boys credit, I think most would. I will get back to you next week on this if you don't mind.

Thank you for your patience!
Mary

Response from AZKate:

Thanks Mary, I did find this info on the net...

It is an article on the National Committee for Latin and Greek's web site. It is from 1991, but the info looks good. About halfway down the Latin page is an article titled "The Classical Languages and College Admissions" I've linked the address here if you want to check it out. http://www.promotelatin.org/latin.htm

Thanks for ALL your help Mary, and I'd love to see any info you find on this. Next week is fine!

And it must have been the Learnables guy... especially if they DON'T sell Latin, how underhanded, trying to frighten someone so they would buy something else from them!

Response from Mary Harrington:

Kate,

Thank YOU for finding the link. I have been a little behind this week; my youngest daughter Stefanie had a baby girl Monday morning and we have spent the week trying to get the baby to learn to nurse. (Not exactly what everyone wants to know!)

I will check with the Latin Teach lady next week too, and e-mail you then.

Mary

Response from AZKate:

How exciting! Congratulations!!!

Response from Mary Harrington:

Thank you, Kate.

I do thank you all for your kindnesses, and am glad you enjoy my daughter Julie; I know she likes being associated with this group.

Mary

Thank you!
Posted By: Mary Harrington

Dear Homeschool Christian Visitors:

Thank you all for inviting me this week to answer your questions, but also to become acquainted with you all! I ended up being the one blessed and helped by AZKate with breastfeeding challenges for my daughter, especially!

Would you mind if I shared with you some of our own personal preferences for curriculum? Just FYI.

Bible: This is a matter of personal preference, so I won't give a recommendation other than to say we did read a chapter of Proverbs or Psalms aloud each day together plus other Bible lessons from our church.

Math: Yes, Saxon. I know there are others with more bells and whistles, and some which teach more theory, but I disagree that they need to learn so much theory before college. We credit (and we have communicated with them) Saxon Math for our children majoring in math and science and being well prepared for it.

English: Rod & Staff is superior.

History: Bob Jones. Even in the lower grades it is interesting and patriotic.

Science: Bob Jones. I think Abeka covers too much material in a year's text. We also used Backyard Scientist a lot. Another mom taught a class for 9th graders using Bob Jones Basic Science, and they made a notebook and did an experiment each week. If you would like to contact her, let me know.

Latin. of course.

Reading: Early years we did McGuffey and also Abeka books. Later on, we used some Abeka, but I also read classics like "The Red Badge of Courage" and "Little Women" aloud to them. I had to keep a dictionary nearby for Louisa May Alcott- what a vocabulary! One of my grown sons said that he thinks you should all know that they need to read books about heroes, of all types.

Music and Art: The science lady also taught them (5 students) music and art history, using Dr. Francis Schaeffer's "How Should We then Live?" as a guide. Each week, they did a hands-on art project beginning with clay pottery, and moving on through mosaics etc. They listened to classical music as they worked.

Well, there you have a brief overview. I know it does not include the most modern texts, but it is what we used successfully.

BTW, no, that is not a recent picture of me! It was taken 25 years and 15 lbs. ago. We mothers seem to have a hard time getting around to picture taking, and I know I should. Just in case you meet me one day, I wouldn't want you to think I had been dishonest!

Again, thank you, Mary and Martha, and all of you who were kind enough to include me for a week in your group.

God bless you all, and e-mail me if you need any math or Latin help, no matter what book you are using.

Mary

Response from AZKate:

You are very welcome...

Mary, it was wonderful having you here to pick your brain!

I really enjoyed hearing about the various curriculums you used and how you did things. It's so fun to see how the Lord has led everyone, and there is so much available now, it can be overwhelming.

I'm sure you are being overly generous about my help! You had already nursed your own successfully and so you have a wealth of experience already to share with your daughter.

Also what picture? Where? I must have missed it... It would be fun to put a face with you, even if it is a wee bit younger than now. ;o)

Hope you can pop in and visit the boards here on occasion, we can always use more Moms who have gone before to help us along.

Katie

Response from Mary Harrington:

One last comment for mow.

The picture is on my copy of the guest message board, right above the messages. See the blond who has a 70's hairdo?

Thank you again, and I will drop by.
Mary

Final thanks from Mary Leggewie:

Thank YOU, Mary!!!
Posted By: Mary Leggewie

We enjoyed having you visit us--thanks for taking so much time to write your thoughtful responses!

I'll be archiving this board this week and adding it to our Christian Education Symposium area.

Thank you again, and may the Lord bless you as you continue to be of service to the Christian homeschool community!

Mary

---

Questions/Comments? E-mail Site Administrator

Copyright © 2002-2008 Homeschool Christian.com
Web Design & Maintenance: Argiope Web Systems