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Christian Education Symposium

Interview with Marshall Fritz
Of The Separation of School & State Alliance
June 3, 1999

ADMIN (Douglas Schmitt of PrestonSpeed Publications)
Almighty Father we pray that tonight's event would be pleasing to You and useful in accordance with Your sovereign will. We are grateful to be used of You and to serve You. Bless the efforts of your servants, Marshall Fritz and Mary Leggewie. Bless each person in attendance at this event. Make us ever grateful that in You we live and move and have our being. In Christ's Name we pray, AMEN!

MARY LEGGEWIE (Homeschool Christian.com) Amen!

MARY Thank you Doug. Welcome to tonight's conference with Marshall Fritz, founder of the Separation of School & State Alliance. You will only see your name on the screen in the audience, and you cannot type, but you can submit questions to be answered after our interview by clicking on the question icon in the middle of your screen.

MARY Marshall Fritz is director of the Separation of School & State Alliance, a national organization he founded in 1994. By mid 1999, over 7,000 educators, parents, scholars, and clergy have joined the call to reunite schools and families by dissolving the bonds between schools and government.

Marshall claims "If we are going to integrate God and education, we must separate school and state." He explains how unity of purpose between school and family can help reverse the century-long decline of parental responsibility, and begin turning around the anger and aimlessness of so many youth that has been the result.

Prior to founding the Alliance, Marshall was president of the unaccredited Pioneer Christian Academy in Fresno. His ideas for quality education were so advanced that his school received endorsements notable educators, including author David Augsburger, Nobel Laureate Milton Friedman, and New York State Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto.

Marshall has been published in the Wall Street Journal, Educational Leadership, The Freeman, Crisis, and he is the publisher of The Education Liberator. He is the lead author of the "Proclamation for the Separation of School and State."

"The Alliance" has sponsored four national conferences on the "Separation/ Responsibility" issue. These included talks ranging from "The Coming Exodus: Why Protestants Will Abandon Government Schools" by Joel Belz and R.C. Sproul, Jr. to "Because All Education is Religious, Government Must Get Out" by Howard Phillips; and from "Mere Creatures of the State" by William Bentley Ball to "Drugging Children for Peace and Quiet: ADD & Ritalin Reconsidered" by Peter Breggin.

The idea of getting government completely out of schooling is now moving into the mainstream and has been written about in the Los Angeles Daily News, Detroit News, Dallas Morning News, the Financial Times of London, Human Events, Orlando Sentinel, Conservative Chronicles, and has received editorial endorsement from the Orange County Register and World Magazine.

Prior to his involvement with elementary and secondary education, Marshall was president of the Advocates for Self-Government, an educational organization that teaches Americans who ardently love liberty how to express their views positively. Marshall began his career with IBM in computer sales, education, and design.

He has been active in Christian Businessmen's Committee, the Serra Club [Not to be confused with Sierra Club-editor's note], Toastmasters, and Overeaters Anonymous. He has also refereed youth soccer and worked as a volunteer in a homeless shelter.

Marshall was born in California in 1943 and earned a B.A. from California State University Fullerton in 1964. He lives in Fresno with wife of 35 years, Joan. They have four grown children and five grandchildren.

MARY Welcome, Marshall!

MARSHALL FRITZ Thank you. It is good to be here.

MARY We're going to have a good time tonight!

MARY Just what do you mean by Separation of School and State?

MARSHALL Separation means ending state, federal, and local government involvement in attendance, content, teacher and school approval, and financing. It's not the business of federal, state, and local government to be involved in Monday-school any more than in Sunday-school.

MARY When did compulsory school begin?

MARSHALL Massachusetts passed the first compulsory attendance law in 1852, a full lifetime after Americans had birthed this Republic. I fear we have lost much of the Republic in the two lifetimes we have had compulsory schooling.

MARY What sort of schools were there before school became government business?

MARSHALL For about 200 years, Americans educated their children using a variety of church schools, home schooling, charity schools, and dame schools. I am hoping to see a resurgence of dame schools led by homeschool moms who find they really love teaching in their home.

MARY Did any of the parents object to compulsory schooling then, or were they in favor of government schooling?

MARSHALL It went both ways. The militia (or was it the police?) were called on in Barnstable, Massachusetts because of parent refusal to obey. You have to remember, this was a period of extreme religious bigotry, and that fueled some people's desire to force other people's children into the schools where they would be taught the "truth."

MARY What about vouchers and those charter schools & public homeschool programs we see popping up all over?

MARSHALL While tax-funded vouchers and charter schools introduce sorely-needed competition into education, they spread the dependency attitude to families currently paying for their children's education. There are better interim steps that don't bring new people into dependency (for instance, increase private vouchers and repeal compulsory attendance).

MARY Do I understand correctly that private vouchers mean private scholarships?

MARSHALL Let's be clear: We need to say voluntarily financed private vouchers. If the financing is coerced via a tax-credit scheme like in Arizona, it is just a crypto-voucher. The money is being laundered by "private" scholarship foundation. You need to look at the moment the person is writing a check: Is it a coercive wealth transfer.

MARY Aren't private schools just a repeat of public ones because of the School-to-work program coming down the pike?

MARSHALL They will be able to pretty much resist, I believe, and even grow because of the absurdity of School-to-Work. However, if vouchers win, market forces will bring them into the system. They will not be able to compete with "free" private schools."

MARY For those of you who are concerned about the poor and would like more information, Marshall has a wonderful tape available that discusses this in more detail. This was my biggest concern before I signed the Proclamation.

MARSHALL Thank you. That is tape A59 "How Separation Helps Break the Poverty Trap." By the way, the question about the poor is the first question 80 percent of the people ask.

MARY What about parents who don't care what happens to their kids? How will their kids be educated if they don't bother themselves?

MARSHALL I want all children raised by responsible parents, but I don't believe such a utopia is possible. Our choice is to continue to use paid professionals and government mandates or to return to requiring parents to raise their children or hand them over for adoption or orphanages. It is hard for me to imagine educational neglect by parents nearly as bad as the irresponsible teachers who, in order to keep a paycheck, promote students who they know cannot read to higher classes where they know there is no effective reading recovery program. Very few parents would be as irresponsible as today's professional educator.

MARY That's a pretty strong statement! I'll bet the teacher unions love you! (hee hee)

MARSHALL I work hard to get along with and have open lines of communication. I do not think the teacher unions are anywhere near the heart of the problem. Government schooling was equally destructive in Soviet Union without unions. You could ban them and there would be no particular improvement. Those who fight them are flailing at the branches of evil and ignoring the taproot.

MARY What about the new School-to-Work programs...aren't they supposed to help our kids get jobs? (ha ha)

MARSHALL Nope. These programs are just the most recent example of the hubris of the "I'm so good I can run other people's lives" mentality that undergirds the whole paternalistic government schooling system. They give petty people who cannot manage their own lives a sense of power.

MARY What IS the primary reason that compulsory schooling even exists?

MARSHALL In all countries, in all centuries, the primary reason for government to set up schools is to undermine the politically weak by convincing their children that the leaders are good and their policies are wise. The core is religious intolerance. The sides simply change between the Atheists, Catholics, Protestants, Unitarians, etc., depending whether you are talking about the Soviet Union, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, America, etc. A common second reason is to prepare the boys to go to war and the girls to cheer them on.

MARY Are you working with Exodus 2000? Can you tell us about it?

MARSHALL Yes, we work closely with Rev. E Ray Moore, founder of Exodus 2000. His focus is to get evangelical Protestant ministers to "get the picture" on just how harmful government schooling is to the children and to families. His new video is super. You can find out how to buy it at his website, www.Exodus2000.org. BTW, this is a different person than the Dr. Ray Moore who helped found the modern homeschool movement.

MARY What have the recent school shooting tragedies done to help your cause? Are you noticing any increase in phone calls and activity at your office?

MARSHALL The 13 multiple murders in government schools in the last five years are taking their toll on the credibility the government educators have with the American people. Littleton very well may be a Krystallnacht moment. I just pray the Americans are more effective at leaving the government schools than the Jews were at leaving Nazi Germany.

We have seen no increase in phone calls. However, we got one from Billy Graham Evangelistic Association that is very promising, and it was triggered by Littleton.

MARY We'll be getting to your questions in a moment. You can submit a question at any time by clicking on the red question mark.

MARY The Web site is now on your screen for the Separation of School & State Alliance. You can actually click around in this Web site now and have a peek at the proclamation (you can even sign it!). There are some very fun articles to read (great radical ones!) and even some great cartoons!

MARY Can anyone sign the proclamation?

MARSHALL Anyone who can understand it and agree with it can sign the Proclamation for the Separation of School and State. We have signers as young as 10 or 12, and we have citizens from over 20 countries. I encourage all homeschoolers to discuss it with their children and get their signatures, too. The easy way is to do it on the Internet by clicking on: http://www.sepschool.org/Proclamation/

MARY What can we do to spread the word?

MARSHALL First, home educators must continue to improve their own lives so that they continue to be attractive. Other parents are watching you intently. When they see loving, obedient, engaging children --- especially teenagers --- they know you are doing SOMETHING right.

Second, take what you like to do and somehow wrap the Separation of School and State message into it. Perhaps the easiest way is to keep some Alliance brochures in your purse or briefcase, and look for opportunities to hand them out. Same for tapes.

MARY I heard you have a new audio tape you're excited about. What is it?

MARSHALL After more than five years of speaking on Separation, I finally have an audio cassette that I think just might be "THE" tape. It's called "The Danger of Over-rendering: Why Christians Shouldn't Use Caesar's Schools." It is so bold that I put a warning label on it and sent it to 80 Christians asking for their advice on whether to distribute it. ...

MARSHALL So far I have gotten 30 replies. All have said that this is the boldness that needs to be said and that no one else is saying it yet. By the way, we sell this tape "two for $8," and it comes not only with the encouragement to make copies as gifts for friends, it even comes with six printed labels so your copies will look nice, too.

MARY That is really GREAT! For a long time I was "nice" about promoting homeschool. I have become radical since signing your Proclamation.

BEVERLY {question presented} Could you please define dame schools?

MARSHALL Dame schools were popular from the 1600s into the mid 1800s. A woman would have 3-8 children come to her home each day, usually ages 5-8. She taught them to read.

BEVERLY {question presented} Is it possible, Mr. Fritz, to push through a tax rebate for those folk that do not avail themselves of government schools?

MARSHALL Perhaps. But most people will want it to be "refundable," a euphemism for welfare. A refundable opt-out tax credit is still a coercive wealth transfer from the haves to the have nots. It is still wrong.

CHRIS {question presented} How realistic is to believe that this can ever come to fruition given the enormity of the NEA?

MARSHALL Separation is already happening as parents choose private- and home-schooling, as well as innovations such as co-op and on-line schooling. As millions more leave the "public" schools, we'll reach a point at which everyone will want out, and support for government schools will collapse. I can conceive of a plausible scenario that accomplishes it in less than four years.

MARY That is so encouraging...I expected it to be a lot longer. But with events like Littleton, I think that folks are starting to listen with open ears.

BEVERLY {question presented} Do you have any allies within the government system now? (e.g., like Dick Armey warning homeschoolers about HR6 a few years ago)

MARSHALL We have a few people inside the fed. govt who have signed the Proclamation. A key man in the House Leadership, Dean Clancy, is one.

But remember, our group does no lobbying. We don't fight federal foolishness. Others can do that. We point the way that we SHOULD GO, not just try to slow down our moves in the wrong direction.

CHRIS {question presented} What politicians can we trust are committed to this cause?

MARSHALL Well, I would like to say you can trust my friend Ron Paul, U.S. Congress from Texas. But even he, the best man in the House, entered a bill that would have allowed the IRS to be the major decision maker on what is educational in the USA, and would have caused massive new borrowing or monetary inflation.

You see, unintended consequences happen even to libertarians when they don't think through their proposals. (BTW, I said this to Ron's face, and we're still friends.)

BEVERLY {question presented} What are the civic or civic governmental steps we need to go through to get a separation of school and government?

MARSHALL First, work to repeal compulsory attendance legislation. Beyond that, I don't think we can plan political activity. The main thing now is to build a constituency for Separation. That means educational and moral instruction, not politics.

BEVERLY{question presented} How will school-to-work impact homeschooling?

MARSHALL I don't know. Maybe most homeschooled children will become poets or entrepreneurs. These will be two careers the government will not prepare people for very well.

MARSHALL {action: } smirks.

MARY Well, you know they say that the government kids will work for the homeschooled ones!

BEVERLY {question presented} What should we say to folks that still think government schools should be reformed?

MARSHALL Quote Al Shanker quoting Dr. Stanley Pogrow: 40 years of reform -- lots of bull, but where's the beef? They've been reforming the thing since Sputnik....

MARSHALL Besides, it isn't even broken. It is doing what it was designed to do in the 1840s --- undermine parents.

MARY ooooo....get 'em MARSHALL !

MARSHALL But, in the 150 years, it is no longer the evangelical Protestants trying to undermine the Catholics. We've played musical chairs, and now the evangelical Protestants are the underminED, not the underminERS.

CIVITAN {question presented} Is there going to be a SepSchool convention this year?

MARSHALL Nope. 'Fraid of Y2K.

MARY You'll have to join us when Robert Green chats on this topic next month!

MARSHALL But, we've had our first regional conference. Edu4um Atlanta attracted 125 people. We have another regional planned for November in Augusta, and three regionals next March and April: Southern California, Detroit, and Washington, D.C.

MARSHALL The Wash DC event is aimed at Muslims. The Augusta and Detroit are focusing on blacks. The Southern California one is focusing on evangelicals.

MARY Last call for questions...we've got several yet to answer.

SARAH {question presented} What about the homeschooling reps? Are they supportive?

MARSHALL Many homeschooling leaders are supporting us: Mary Pride, Gregg Harris, RC Sproul Jr, RJ Rushdoony, Pat Montgomery, Cathy Duffy, Inge Cannon, Lori Harris, and many more. Oh, Jessica Hulcy, Marshall Foster.

BEVERLY {question presented} Beyond passing out Separation of School and State brochures, what can we do to help build a constituency for Separation?

MARSHALL Speak; email; write letters to editor; get invited to local education forums; call talk shows. Ask you local talk show hosts to invite me to be on their show.

Also, support E. Ray Moore at Exodus 2000. Oh! Religious folks should talk to their pastor, rabbi, priest, iman, etc.

HAROLD ORNDORFF {question presented} There seems to be a very close tie between "separationism" and libertarianism. How "tight" do you think this connection is?

MARSHALL Any statement that "X" doesn't belong in the government is a "libertarian" statement. So we all have plenty of "libertarian" beliefs.

At the moment, most of my financial support comes from libertarians I have known for 15 years. However, the new people in Separation are mostly conservatives. Now, where is a prosperous conservative who will sport $10,000 per month?

SARAH {question presented} How do you help people see that public education is socialist, and is in direct conflict with democracy

MARSHALL I use a simple textbook definition of socialism: government ownership and administration of the means of production. Then I say government schools fit that to a 'T.'

By the way, since most conservatives will conserve any liberal idiocy in place before they were born, it doesn't do much good to convince them it is socialism. It just makes them mad.

MARY Marshall , I'd like to thank you so much for joining us tonight for this conference! Thank you for all you're doing to make the world a better place, starting with our children!

MARSHALL You are to be thanked for inviting me. It went much better than I expected. (feared?) I had fun, too!

MARY Thanks also to PrestonSpeed Publications for making this Christian Education Symposium available to us!

See you next week for an informal chat on Summer Time learning. I suggest you bookmark our Christian Education Symposium Page for more information about upcoming conferences!

Of you'd like to be notified of future events, please e-mail me at mary@homeschoolchristian.com

If you would like more information about the Separation of School & State Alliance or would like to sign their proclamation, you can contact them at www.SepSchool.org . Their address is 4578 N. First St. PMB #310, Fresno, CA 93726. Toll Free (888)338-1776, (559) 292-1776 or 292-7582 Fax E-mail Sepschool@psnw.com

For those of you who would like to visit with fellow homeschoolers about tonight's conference, feel free to move to our Homeschool Chat room. Click on the Site Map with the red "X" to change rooms. Thank you for joining us, and God Bless you and your families! Good night.

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